Here’s an uncomfortable question for you: how long since you actually sat down and read the Bible?
I’m not talking about reading a book about the Bible. I’m not talking about reading a book that references the Bible. I’m not talking about overhearing a snippet of Scripture in a Bible class. I’m asking a very simple question: how long since you parked yourself on the couch, cracked the cover of The Good Book, and spent any significant amount of time actually reading what it has to say?
When I ask this question in person, most people — most Christians! — confess they haven’t read the Bible in years. (A note to Fundamentalists: dragging your eyes back and forth across the page without registering what the words mean is not reading.)
There are at least two major obstacles to a personal exploration of Scripture. First: these days, your Tivo is packed with episodes of Alias and Lost … who’s got time for the Bible? Second: all too many Bibles (like the King James Version) are just too hard for most folks to read and enjoy.
If you’re looking for a Bible that’s approachable and easy to read, you should try The Message. It’s not perfect. In fact, there are times that The Message, in its effort to be readable, plays a little fast and loose with the facts. Occasionally, in trying to avoid using loaded, high-falutin’ religious language, The Message occasionally comes up with bizarre alternatives (living the "kingdom life?") that don’t make much sense.
Even the author admits The Message isn’t a study Bible. What The Message has going for it, though, is an edgy, modern vocabulary, short sentences, and text that, at its best, breathes new life into all-too-familiar passages.
First this: God created the Heavens and Earth — all you see, all you don’t see. Earth was a soup of nothingness, a bottomless emptiness, an inky blackness. God’s Spirit brooded like a bird above the watery abyss.
I love reading it aloud. I love quoting from it. I love what the author is trying to do: make the Scriptures accessible to people who generally don’t sit around reading the Scriptures.
Get The Message. Even if you disagree with some of the author’s choices, reading this quirky little version of the Scriptures will make you see the Bible with fresh, new eyes.
Hey Mark,
Nice to hear from you again as well. Yes i have had a great summer, hope the same for you.
True while no one has found a full copy of the original bible, we do have copies of passed down scrolls and copies of old hebrew, greek, aramaic, and latin texts which as you know there are numerous scholars that are experts in these fields that have translated these manuscripts for us. No i can not read these languages (hopefully upon completion of seminary in two years i will.) What about great literary works like The Odyssey which we have so few copies (none complete copies) of that are held at such high regard in our twisted educational systems today; we have many more copies of OLDER biblical texts and still people question it and whether it can be trusted and taken literally.
Also words have been translated to our language, not added in such abundance like in “the message” example that i listed earlier. Surprisingly i like “the message” i think it is doctrinally sound but to call it a bible is risky to me because of the additions geared at human emotion and understanding. i have no problem with using it as an aid to understand God’s word.
SCRAPTURE? This time i disagree; here’s why.
1. Deuteronomy 4:2 (you shall not add to the word…..)2. Deuteronomy 12:32 (…you shall not add or take away from it.)3. Proverbs 30:6 (do not add to his words…)4. Psalms 119:61 (….”Your word”)
ISIAIH 34:16 “Search from the book of the Lord and read…”
Mark,I dont see how we can have here 5 authors (John,Moses,Solomon,Isiaih,David) all calling there books God’s word etc. and then as christians knowing that they all worship the same God; the God that is today and hasnt changed AT ALL; and not believe that the same standards that they have set for their books in our beloved BIBLE are applied to every other book of the Bible.
Is it also coincidence that Revelation 22:19 is the last verse in the Bible; the Word of an all knowing God which means that he would know before time began that the above verse would be the last in his Word. Can we as christians believe in coincidence, is God in control or isnt he?
Maybe i am a fundamentalist, maybe i do take the Bible literally,….. no I AM, I DO i am also Southern Baptist that should add some coals to the beginning fire(have fun with that one) but if i worship, love, respect, and fear a God as powerful as ours i would tread no other way.
ps. i forgot about the holy spirit part, sorry. Does God also not hold the ability to harden our hearts (ask pharaoh) can we not be blind to the truth (ask Paul) are their things that we dont understand until arrival of the Holy Spirit at salvation (ask the disciples) if that doesnt tell you that it is the Holy Spirit that allows us to understand Gods word, Gods character, and Gods love then i dont know what will.
IN & FOR HIS NAMEBrock
Hey Mark,
Nice to hear from you again as well. Yes i have had a great summer, hope the same for you.
True while no one has found a full copy of the original bible, we do have copies of passed down scrolls and copies of old hebrew, greek, aramaic, and latin texts which as you know there are numerous scholars that are experts in these fields that have translated these manuscripts for us. No i can not read these languages (hopefully upon completion of seminary in two years i will.) What about great literary works like The Odyssey which we have so few copies (none complete copies) of that are held at such high regard in our twisted educational systems today; we have many more copies of OLDER biblical texts and still people question it and whether it can be trusted and taken literally.
Also words have been translated to our language, not added in such abundance like in “the message” example that i listed earlier. Surprisingly i like “the message” i think it is doctrinally sound but to call it a bible is risky to me because of the additions geared at human emotion and understanding. i have no problem with using it as an aid to understand God’s word.
SCRAPTURE? This time i disagree; here’s why.
1. Deuteronomy 4:2 (you shall not add to the word…..)2. Deuteronomy 12:32 (…you shall not add or take away from it.)3. Proverbs 30:6 (do not add to his words…)4. Psalms 119:61 (….”Your word”)
ISIAIH 34:16 “Search from the book of the Lord and read…”
Mark,I dont see how we can have here 5 authors (John,Moses,Solomon,Isiaih,David) all calling there books God’s word etc. and then as christians knowing that they all worship the same God; the God that is today and hasnt changed AT ALL; and not believe that the same standards that they have set for their books in our beloved BIBLE are applied to every other book of the Bible.
Is it also coincidence that Revelation 22:19 is the last verse in the Bible; the Word of an all knowing God which means that he would know before time began that the above verse would be the last in his Word. Can we as christians believe in coincidence, is God in control or isnt he?
Maybe i am a fundamentalist, maybe i do take the Bible literally,….. no I AM, I DO i am also Southern Baptist that should add some coals to the beginning fire(have fun with that one) but if i worship, love, respect, and fear a God as powerful as ours i would tread no other way.
ps. i forgot about the holy spirit part, sorry. Does God also not hold the ability to harden our hearts (ask pharaoh) can we not be blind to the truth (ask Paul) are their things that we dont understand until arrival of the Holy Spirit at salvation (ask the disciples) if that doesnt tell you that it is the Holy Spirit that allows us to understand Gods word, Gods character, and Gods love then i dont know what will.
IN & FOR HIS NAMEBrock
Its Brock again….. i couldnt lay off of this one. I really enjoyed this entry Mark, both because of the subject matter and your authorship which even though most times i disagree with you i in no way will belittle your talent. Anyways, Yes i quite frequently sit around and read the Bible and true while there are times when it is confusing or hard to understand shouldnt it be the job of the holy spirit to make God’s word understandable not some guy telling us “God brooded like a bird.” Since we have both studied the Word in its original forms and are both pretty familiar with Biblical history there are several words and ideas added by the passage that you quoted. True it is easy to understand but is it ok to change the words to fit our vocabulary…. then it is our word not God’s word. Does “the message” also say that Eve screwed up and Adam was an idiot for following her? I would put it like that, same idea but my words; not ok! (Revelations 22:18 – 19) I just wanted to throw my two cents in and see what you think. If you are looking for great versions try The Holman Christian Standard or the NEW King James Version. Im sure i will talk to you soon.
Hi, Brock. It’s good to hear from you again. Here’s hoping your summer has been a good one.
First, if I may, some questions:
1) To my knowledge, no “original forms” — what scholars call autographs or primary copies — of the Scripture exist. I don’t claim to have studied Scripture in its original form. Are you saying that you have?
2) You seem to be objecting to The Message saying, “God’s Spirit brooded like a bird above the watery abyss.” In what way is this characterization unfair, inaccurate, or unduly free?
And now, answers to your questions:
Brock asked: “Shouldn’t it be the job of the Holy Spirit to make God’s Word understandable?”
Mark replies: I’ll do here as Jesus often did, answering a question with a question. How, exactly, are you suggesting the Holy Spirit “makes God’s Word understandable?”
Brock asks, “Is it okay to change the words to fit our vocabulary?”
Mark replies: I’d submit that the words of Genesis 1:1 (and other Scriptures) have already been changed to “fit our vocabulary,” since very few modern readers can read Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic.
And, finally:
Again with the Scrapture! Brock, Brock, Brock. You seem to be quoting Revelations 22:18-19 in support of the idea that rephrasing Scripture is “not okay.”
Revelations 22:18-19 — even in the beloved King James Version — is clearly pronouncing a curse on anyone who adds to or takes words from “the words of the book of this prophecy.” In context, the reference is to the Book in John’s vision, or, at the very most, the Book of Revelation — not to Scripture as a whole.
Frankly, I’d recommend you worry a lot less about the people who are trying to make the Scriptures more approachable …
… and worry a lot more about the people who go around misapplying and misunderstanding ’em.
Grace and Peace,El Marko
Brock wrote: No one has found an original copy of the full Bible…
Mark notes: And no one will, because there’s no such thing.
The Bible is a collection of texts, assembled over centuries. There never was “an original copy of a full Bible.”
Brock asks: “It is also conidence that Revelation 22:19 is the last verse in the Bible?”
Mark notes: Revelation 22:19 is not the last verse in the Bible. That would be Revelation 22:21.
Brock admits: I am [a fundamentalist] … I am also a Southern Baptist.
Mark suggests: You might try just being a Christian. It was good enough for first-century disciples; it’s good enough for me.
Oh, Brock. Brock, Brock, Brock. Your heart’s in the right place — I really believe that. But your posts lead me to believe that your head’s being filled with a great deal of nonsense, most likely being served up by folks at that seminary of yours.
Rather than lose our focus by chasing a flurry of red herrings and proof-texts, why don’t we go back to the core of our discussion?
Your posts are loosely addressing the topic of the reliability of a translated text. With an eye toward illuminating that topic, let me toss out some ideas in a format that has proved very useful when studying the Bible with people who like to call themselves fundamentalists.
I’ll break my argument down into facts, assertions, and conclusions. At what point, Brock, do we begin to differ?
1. FACT: The earliest copies of the Scripture we refer to as Genesis 1:1-2 appear to be in written in Hebrew.
2. FACT: Hebrew is not English.
3. FACT: In order to read Genesis 1:1-2 in English, an English reader must read from:
– a translation, which substitutes English words for Hebrew words, or
– a paraphrase, which substitutes one set of English words for another, or
– some fusion of the two.
Any objection so far?
BEFORE I START, GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE EARLIEST DISCIPLES, IT WAS ONE OF THEM WHO SAID DONT ADD OR TAKE AWAY FROM GOD’S WORD. IS IT STILL GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU?
No,My objection is not with this FACT; we must read a literal translation or literal substitution of words. My objection with the Bible(?) version that you stated “the Message” in no way attempts substitution but attempts paraphrase…. or in easier terms Cliff’s notes. Again i agree the the ideas in “the Message” are correct, the ideas in Cliff’s notes are also the same idea as the book for which it represents. But… if you read Cliff’s Notes have you read the book? My teachers didnt think so, you as an author surely wouldnt think so.
Also why such a big deal with scripture being “God Breathed?” (your newest entry)
Here’s what i believe,1. Heaven: God created, God occupated, God protected, literal place2. Hell: God created, God absent, God closed, literal place3. The Church: (not the building) God created, God protected (…none will be snatched from my hands), God loved, literal body4. THE BIBLE: God breathed, MAN WRITTEN, God inspired, MAN WRITTEN, God protected (if it will be in heaven which it says it will it must be protected so that it can be; only those things protected by God will enter Heaven), LITERAL word of God. To be taken literally
Mark,
just some questions, what do you think.
1) Is the bible completely true?2) While it was written by man, Is it God’s word?3)Do you take it totally literal?4) Where are you getting that “fundies” still think that KJV is the best translation; that has long since been passed up.5) Do you like the church?
I know you will try the thing where i am looking for you to find answers for me so here are my answers1.ABSOLUTELY2.NO DOUBT3.YES4.HCS5.COMPLETELY, (even in its flaws)
Like before Mark, i do enjoy these discussions, i am not out to belittle or harm anyone. I love GOD. I love his WORD. I love the CHURCH. I love GOD’s CREATION (anyone reading) I know that today’s church doesnt do a good job about portraying the love that Jesus so wonderfully did, but why dont people attempt to stay in and change rather than jump out and bash bash bash. I do pray…. seriously that whatever people see in this discussion that they would make the ultimate decision to follow CHRIST (not us). Mark is flawed, Brock is flawed…that makes us equal. This is not a hate thing, as fellow believers shouldnt we both have the goal of winning souls? Mark, in your next entry, how about salvation, the path, the story… maybe yours, ill give you mine, ask others for theirs.
Sorry about another LOOOONG entry but this is my passion and calling. I promise no more long entries i will just answer and move on.
Thanks againBrock