Editor’s Note: This is a long post. Stick with it, okay?
In response to my post concerning The Journey, Brock Sund, a reader and “future minister,” left the following comment (edited here for clarity and brevity, but included in its entirety here):
As a devout Christian, future seminary student, believer of the Bible as truth, and future minister I do believe that it is sad that the gay community is mistreated the way that it is … This is not to say that I agree with the lifestyle (I don’t, nor do I understand it.)
The problem that has recently arisen is that gays want to be … Bible-believing Christians … but also remain gay. If the Bible is read then we can clearly see that homosexuality is a sin. PERIOD.
In defense, all sin is the same in the eyes of the Lord and is not too big for Jesus to wash away. The church in essence should not be open to [accepting] homosexuals, but instead the people suffering from a sin-stricken life much the same as alcoholics, drug addicts, murderers, thieves and any other sin that we can put our fingers on.
To not preach and teach what the Bible says is to make the church a hypocritical society and as much as the “non-churched” would like that, it is not going to happen (I pray.)
This response is however written with much heart for both the people reading as it is for you and Clyde, as I have known you guys for several years and think both of you are excellent people. I’m sure there are people in both of your lives that you love, but you don’t agree with things that they do, and demand that they change them before they become something better…. if so then we understand each other completely.
Brock,
In your comment, you equate a twelve-year, monogamous, loving relationship between two people with drug addiction, adultery, and murder. Frankly? That alone should make you question where you’re coming from.
But it doesn?t ? because you imagine you are backed with the authority of the Scriptures. Oddly, for someone so interested in Scripture, you failed to cite any that support your assertions. But that’s okay. As always, when people use Scripture to justify bigotry and prejudice, what the Bible actually says isn’t really the issue.
Just forty years ago, for example, the church wasn’t out to get The Gays; they were out to get The Blacks. Quoting Scriptures like Jude 1:7 and Genesis 1:11-22, they barred The Blacks from their churches and insisted that white people who married The Blacks were sinners.
These days, the church’s teaching on that subject seems to have changed. Why? Did Scripture change? Did God’s will change? Did the nature of sin change? No.
What did change was society … and with it, the church’s conclusions about these Scriptures and what they must mean.
And that’s the real deal here, Brock. While it’s convenient for you to position your opinions about Scripture as “God’s will” or “what the Bible says, period” … you are, in fact, simply preaching your personal conclusions about these issues (or, more likely, you?re repeating the conclusions of your teachers, who are, in fact, doing the very same thing).
Me? I’m well aware of my own imperfect grasp and understanding of God’s perfect will. Over time, I?ve seen my beliefs about a number of issues change and evolve as a result of prayer, experience, and study. The result? Any energy I might be tempted to spend judging the quality or correctness of other people?s relationships with God is spent, instead, managing and improving my own.
But there are a lot of people who prefer to focus on others instead of themselves. Frankly? I think that?s why churchy people have so much interest in The Gays these days. Claiming they have to defend the church, the Bible, and marriage against The Gays gives them a common enemy ? someone ?out there,? someone they can hold up as less righteous than they are.
Because very few folks will stand up against this kind of bigotry, preaching about the evils of The Gays is safe.
So, instead of focusing on themselves, some ?devout Christians? focus on The Gays. In addition to using the Scripture to prop up their prejudices, they adopt and use clever, inflammatory phrases ? like ?the homosexual lifestyle.?
Brock: what, exactly, is the homosexual lifestyle? Of what does it consist?
For that matter, what is the heterosexual lifestyle? Do you really believe all heterosexual people share one lifestyle? Do all white people have a “white lifestyle”? Is there a black lifestyle? A Jewish lifestyle?
Brock, ?the homosexual lifestyle? is a myth. It?s a loaded phrase, used exclusively by bigots who depend on its ambiguity to whip small-minded followers into a frenzy.
And it, too, is convenient, since addressing ?the homosexual lifestyle? allows you to address something vague and undefined ? instead of dealing with the very specific, very real, and very complex life of a single human being.
Brock, you need to stop hiding behind phrases like ?the homosexual lifestyle? and have the balls to admit you?re talking about a person. You?re talking about another Child of God. You?re talking about me.
And it’s on this personal, human level, Brock, where all your claims of love, concern, and tolerance fall apart. You don’t know me. I can’t recall a single conversation we’ve ever shared. We?ve not worked side by side. We?ve not shared our hopes, our fears, our joys, or our dreams. You’re not involved in my life or my relationship with Clyde.
By contrast, before he ever stepped into a pulpit, the Christ became deeply involved with the lives of those to whom he ministered. Jesus rolled up his sleeves, Brock. He got His hands dirty. In fact, He spent so much time with “the sinners,” he was frequently confused with them.
In your passionate rush to defend The Scripture and The Church, you seem to have missed Jesus? model of ministry ? and the New Testament’s most incredible, revolutionary, and mind-boggling message: the remarkable freedom of the believer. Christ liberated us from the tyranny of people who imagine themselves qualified to gauge the sinfulness and suitability of others.
As a Christian, I have my own personal relationship with God. That relationship is between my God and me. It is not yours to condone, evaluate, critique, or approve.
That, of course, leaves us with only one option: embracing each other as we are, without imposing conditions, and leaving Christ to do what He alone is qualified to do.
Doing this may not win you as many brownie points with the Pharisees who run the seminaries. It may not please the bigots and hate-mongers who talk of loving sinners but hating sins. It may not be as attractive as taking a stand against The Gays.
Still, my prayer is that, with time and prayer and study, you?ll refuse to play any part in ?shutting the Kingdom of heaven in men?s faces,? and that you?ll possess sufficient grace, strength, and courage to pursue a true ministry.
In Him,
Mark
Mark,
I am glad you responded as i was pretty sure that you would. I would hope that you could have kept your calm while writing but from some of your words i see that didnt happen. I also see that you have an issue with the truth. When you say that you dont know who i am, i wonder if you and clyde forgot about the four years that i spent working for clyde’s company, or even more the 3 christmas parties that i attended at your home. This is not however an arguement but for a reminder from minister to MINISTER that homosexuality or “being gay” (whatever it is you prefer) is a sin found in scripture (Leviticus 20:13); please also remember that i didnt write the scriptures God did.
Hi, Brock.
Brock wrote: I would hope that you could have kept your calm while writing but from some of your words i see that didnt happen.
Mark replies: Well, actually, I can assure you I was cool as a cucumber the entire time I was writing. (This isn’t the first time I’ve had this conversation with someone, so I’m not much inclined to get worked up over it.) Where, exactly, did you think I lost my cool?
Brock wrote: I also see that you have an issue with the truth.
Mark replies: Well, no. I do have an issue with people who confuse their conclusions with The Truth. Are you one of those people?
Brock wrote: When you say that you dont know who i am, i wonder if you and clyde forgot about the four years that i spent working for clyde’s company, or even more the 3 christmas parties that i attended at your home.
Mark replies: Where in the world did you get that? I never said I didn’t know who you were.
What I did say — and it’s an important point, Brock, so please stick with me — is that you don’t know me. It’s true that you once worked for my partner’s company. It’s also true you’ve been in my home.
Still, I stand by the statement I actually made: you don’t know me, Brock. We’ve never chatted, never worked together, never shared any mutual experiences or insights. Would you disagree with this?
Brock wrote: Homosexuality or “being gay” (whatever it is you prefer) is a sin found in scripture (Leviticus 20:13).
Ah, Levicitus. I’d like to discuss that bit of Scripture in some detail with you, Brock … but rather than do this down here in the comments section, I’ll do it here:
https://www.classic.madebymark.com/archives/000695.html
I hope you’ll feel free to participate in the discussion! Will you stick around for that?
Brock wrote: please also remember that i didnt write the scriptures God did.
Mark replies: I’m fine with the Scriptures, Brock. I don’t worry about the Scriptures at all. Me and the Scriptures? We’re tight.
I *do* worry about people who mistake their personal conclusions about the Scriptures *for* the Scriptures. Generally, these people are very good at mistaking their will for God’s will, and they love to go around binding their conclusions on everyone else.
I’m not saying you’re one of ’em. I just saying I hope you’re not, for your own sake! 😉
More later,Mark